Can I throw out a wild suggestion?

[CrunchyTXMama]

I had a suggestion, and flog me if you will, but there has just got to be some middle ground to the major disagreement we've been having on this board. Of course, this is Roy's site, and I am so incredibly grateful to have a free site where I can discuss all things Dave with other people who "get it". I will abide by whatever rules are set forth by him and the other mods, but I thought I'd make a friendly suggestion.

What if we had a forum for "difficulties with the Dave Ramsey plan", or just one small place where we can discuss our issues with the plan? Sort of like a "hot topic" area, that I have on some other boards. All other forums would be off-limits to anything anti-Dave....and that would solve the issue of these anti-Dave things that pop up in every forum. Hopefully, DR philosophy will prevail, but we could intelligently discuss facets of things that Dave says, that might be a bit "debatable".

Like I've said before, DR has a phenomenal plan, but he is human, and blindly following another human doesn't seem wise to me. I haven't needed to deviate from his plan, and I hope that I won't ever feel like I need to, but I hope that if I was thinking about it, I could have an intelligent discussion without automatically being yelled at for being "anti-Dave".

Just my 2 cents. :tmcents:

[pcmedic]

I will talk this over with Roy when he gets back to town, and one of us will let you guys know.

David S.

[cjohnston4]

From the TMMO site:

Criticisms of Dave Ramsey personally, or his views on personal finance are expected but are not intended as a purpose of the forums. Dave is not beyond criticism but the MyTMMO forums are designed to inspire and encourage people to apply Dave's advice.

Just food for thought.

[SharkUSMC]

I've never been a fan of Democracy on Internet boards. I believe the guy paying the bills gets all the votes. I don't think a few folks voluntarily donating a couple of bucks earns them a vote either. The person paying the main bills and doing all the work gets all the say in my opinion.

That being said, I think the biggest problem is coming from armchair lawyering. There seems to be a lot of people quick to point out everybody else's mistakes(probably myself included), and it is beginning to frustrate people on both sides of the issue.

Instead of creating a forum that is expressly against the purposes of the site, why not we all take a step back from trying to be moderators when no one has asked us to? If you aren't a moderator or administrator, and you see a post that goes against what you think this board is about, rather than publicly comment on that thread, use the little button in the upper right to report the post, and let a moderator deal with it. Hopefully the moderator/administrator can then deal with it in private.

Now, if someone posts and asks what people think about an idea they are having, or something they are thinking of doing, and solicits opinion, that's one thing. But if someone posts something that goes against the DR philosophy, just kind of puts it out there or they post something anti-Dave as a response to someone else, just report it and trust the mods to do their job. I've seen it all too many times before. It's when non-mods try to enforce rules that things begin to degenerate.

I'm not accusing anyone in particular of anything, heck, I might even be guilty on both sides of the issue myself. I for one will be making every effort to assist the mods by reporting what I think is an infraction, rather than commenting openly. I will also make every effort to only give advice that is in line with what Dave says.

Roy has made it abundantly clear how he feels about non-Dave advice being given. We all need to respect that. And to paraphrase Dave, if I don't like that, I need to go start my own message board.

As always, the standard disclaimers apply. If what I've written offends you, I assure you it is only due to inadequately explaining my position. I enjoy the camaraderie we all have here, and participating in this site is a high point in each and every day for me. So, if something I've written can be taken either positively, or negatively, I promise it was meant in the positive light. Extend me that grace, and I'll do my best to extend that same grace to you.

Love, Peace, and Chicken Grease to you all...

[RedneckMom]

Well said Shark.
I agree that the best solution would be to just report it and trust the mods to do their job.

[eldhgirl777]

Disclaimers: 1) It's not my board, and I'm not trying to sound like it's my call. 2) I've had no coffee, barely any sleep, my brain is fried and so I may not be understanding the issues presented here as clearly as may be necessary.

That said, I guess I'm a little confused.

What do you mean by difficulties, exactly? Like, I had difficulties with the plan in that it took us two years to make the BEF, is taking a while to pay off debt, etc. Sometimes there are difficulties with the plan when you face so many people all the time who are chanting the "credit cards rock" theme. But that's life and not the plan itself. So do you mean difficulties as in frustrations, or difficulties as in criticisms? Personally, I think there's a big difference.

People having difficulties with the plan in terms of being frustrated, feeling discouraged, or overwhelmed would, I really hope, feel able to discuss that here and not get lamblasted for being "weak" or "anti-Dave". But wanting to criticize the plan and argue about it seems like it might end up hurting the overall discussion, as well as damaging people's resolve (newbies and veterans) for really following it and making a permanent life change.

I'm not trying to attack anyone (and I don't ever want to attack anyone), and I think in certain contexts, a forum like that works. But it's not my board, and I'm not entirely sure that if that forum is about criticisms, that something like that would ultimately be for the best here.

[stacyshan]

I agree somewhat I think. What I would like to see is a section for the most common struggles, like "partner not on board". Like my DH not on board wants to trade in our 2004 SUV that I will have paid off & debt free in just 9 more months, for a brand new one! Something I swore I would never do ever again. I don't feel free to post such an anti-Dave problem on the boards because I would be slammed, more than likely. But if I had a forum specifically with others in similar situations I'd feel more comfortable sharing. JMO.
I love what Roy does here, I have no complaints.

[SharkUSMC]

Off-topic a bit, but somewhat on...

Stacyshan: That is a really tough challenge you have to deal with there! To me, that is exactly the type of post I would hope to see anywhere on the board. You aren't espousing an anti-Dave message, you are dealing with life as it happens. I hope you don't mind if I co-opt your situation for a bit of an example.

Let's say you posted that wherever it was appropriate; maybe Money and Cars. I then posted as a response that since your husband was set on it, you might as well suck it up and go ahead and do the trade in. And since you are getting a new car anyway, make sure you get a good percentage on your finance rate, etc.

Obviously an extreme example but it will serve for our illustration. Obviously my response is anti-DR. Your post is just reporting life and asking for coping help. My response should be reported, and dealt with (edited or deleted) by a mod. What we shouldn't see is a bunch of people posting after me and pointing out item by item what I was saying that was wrong. It takes the focus off of your problem, and it is what is known in message board terminology as "feeding the trolls".

Nothing in your inquiry is wrong at all. Seeking advice and counsel, standing together against our enemy - That is what we should be about. We should be encouraging one another. Let the mods deal with the mess, it's why they have volunteered to help.

You just keep on posting when you need help or encouragement. No one will fault you for that.

[stacyshan]

You just keep on posting when you need help or encouragement. No one will fault you for that.

Good case in point & excellant example. Your solution does sound like a good logical one. I wish all members shared your feelings about my continued posting for support or encouragement in my spouse not on board situation but I'm not sure some people understand what it's like & have little tolerance for such postings. Tire of hearing them. Hopefully I'm wrong but that's just the way it seems sometimes. Thanks for your understanding & support of an ongoing tough situation.

[Gretchen]

Chasing the rabbit...

Ok... I know we are way off topic... but had to comment. Stacy... if DH is not going to consider your wishes in the matter of the new SUV... I would NOT (NO WAY NO HOW) sign my name to it. Then if you leave... he's stuck with it.

But I'd really do my best to convince him to do otherwise.

And back on topic...

I really think something needs to happen. I'm not sure exactly what. I think Shark is on the right track. Maybe some of us Mods aren't doing a good enough job. I've always been the fan of... "let them work it out unless it gets out of hand". But it seems like a lot of people are unhappy. So maybe that is not the best way to be.

I do think it is so common in a message board setting for people to #1 - be more rude to someone than in real life because you are hiding behind a keyboard and you can be possibly a bit more bold and #2 -- for people to take things the wrong way and be defensive because it is hard to hear people's tone through type. So I do think some of the drama is just to be expected anytime you're dealing with a message board.

[Christine]

#2 -- for people to take things the wrong way and be defensive because it is hard to hear people's tone through type. So I do think some of the drama is just to be expected anytime you're dealing with a message board.

DING DING DING.....

I also think the problem lies in the fact that there are several posters who really have an identity with only this board (that may be a slight exaggeration but you see what I am saying...). If someone disagrees with me or the way I did something.... why can't it bring about DISCUSSION rather than animosity. At the end of the day.... if someone here is "mad" at me for something I said or did... it doesn't change how I feel about myself or change my "real" life in any way. No I don't like people being upset with me or misunderstanding me... but at the same time it doesn't rock my world. KWIM?

Stacy... even Dave would say that you don't need his program first... you need a marriage counselor. If he won't go... then there are tougher decisions to be made.

[miranova]

Gretchen, I do agree that with message boards there will always be a little bit of drama. However, it's the mods and higher ups that are encouraging (or at least not discouraging) a lot of the rude behavior. When someone is told that they don't belong here and should just leave, that's rude, plain and simple. Even if you (general you, not you specifically) don't think that they belong, that's not a mature way of handling it. If Roy thinks someone should leave, that his decision and it should be dealt with privately. It should not be plastered all over every thread that the person posts on. That's what causes the original issue to get sidetracked while people pick sides.

I would love to see the mods encouraging that people state their opinions in a nicer manner, which was the first and main reason for my post the other day. I admit I got sidetracked by the Dave issues after that, and I wish I hadn't because it distracted from my original point: there are nice ways and mean ways to disagree. And no matter what your opinion on any topic or any person, being outright rude is not the answer.

[Gretchen]

there are nice ways and mean ways to disagree. I totally agree.

As far as saying "this might not be the best place for you"... I'm not sure what the answer is there. On one hand. It's true. If you are big time pro-credit... borrow up to your eyeballs type... than really... this isn't the place for you. This is the place for those wanting to learn about and follow Dave's plan. There is no need to argue and try and change people's minds about the plan. (Not saying anyone tried that... just saying.) So if people are here that aren't on board with the plan... it just wastes everyone's time.

But you are probably right. Those situations could be dealt with privately and not publicly. Because when it is dealt with publicly it raises emotions and people also "take sides"... when we should all really be on the same "side".

[miranova]

If you are big time pro-credit... borrow up to your eyeballs type... than really... this isn't the place for you.

I know you said that you weren't really using this as a true example...but...I just don't get why people keep bringing this statement up when it has never happened. Maybe I haven't been here long enough but I've never seen someone post about being "pro-credit" and "borrowing up to their eyeballs". If that were truly happening, I'd be right there next to you telling the person that they have the wrong board. (I'd try to say it in a light-hearted manner, but I WOULD say it).

[SharkUSMC]

If you are big time pro-credit... borrow up to your eyeballs type... than really... this isn't the place for you.

But I get a lot of airline miles from using my card!!!!:crazy:

[SharkUSMC]

Oh, and in case it wasn't clear. I didn't mean to imply the mods haven't been doing their job. Just that we (read I) haven't been using the reporting tool to let them know when folks were encouraging anti-DR methodology, and instead we (again I) have been trying to correct others of our (my) own accord.

Thank you very much to all the mods that give of their time and talent to make this a great place to come.

[eldhgirl777]

Thank you very much to all the mods that give of their time and talent to make this a great place to come.

Here, here! I agree!

[cjohnston4]

I would agree with most of Shark's note. And he's right this is Roy's house and he is placed in a difficult position between allowing a free flow of debate, ideas, encouragement and wet noodle activity . It's almost an unenviable position of how to let ideas flow and where to draw a line to keep the forum from getting out of control or off focus.

Overall I think the mods do a pretty good job. My skin is a little thicker than some, so if someone comes at me strongly I will respond to what I believe is their issue or concern and not let the stregnth of their reply get to me. Honestly, there are a couple of no nonsense folks here who can be very blunt that I hold in very high regard because of their knowledge or commitment.

As for notifiying mods privately on posts that people find not site appropriate. I would rather see that in sunlight. I have a real pet peeve for tattle tales who do things behind my or your back and then someone gets bushwhacked. Publically state you have an issue, explain the issue and state that you will be adressing it with a mod. Posters will be able to see your concern and evaluate from there. We may see your point and support you or suggest it's best to let it rest. But whisper campaigns, silent agendas or pettiness only hurt a forum.

[SharkUSMC]

Let me start off by saying I'm not offended by your statements Chris. :)

I respectfully disagree about not "tattling" (your word.) It seems to me that we have already tried posting when we disagree with someone, and it has led to the current state of mild unrest. And if we keep doing what we've been doing, we know we'll keep getting what we've been getting.

I think of using the warning button to request a mod to come and look for themselves, rather than trying to explain to them why you think a post is wrong. A sort of "Hey, I thought you should look at this."

I think one of the reasons the Bible tells us in Matt 18 to first go to a brother we have a problem with and then to go to another brother to act as an mediator before we take it public, is that often when we think someone else is in the wrong, the mediator will in fact be able to point out that we are in error, and save us the embarrassment of taking it public.

An example: maybe you post a reply to someone that I think is Anti-DR. Rather than hashing it out on the boards, I report the post, a mod checks it out, and finds you were just fine in what you posted. The mod contacts me, and lets me know your post is fine, and not anti-DR. Now, rather than cause animosity between you and I and anyone else that cares to be involved, I have undergone a teachable moment.

Is it more work for the mods that way? Sure. But that's why they get paid so much money. :laugh4:

Admittedly it could be argued that we could have all learned from the situation had the interchange been public, but that level of maturity and dialogue has frankly been lacking, and it's just been bickering lately.

Either way, I still think you are an awesome guy, and love hearing your input, even when we agree to disagree.

[Momma2Nathan]

I would agree with most of Shark's note. And he's right this is Roy's house and he is placed in a difficult position between allowing a free flow of debate, ideas, encouragement and wet noodle activity . It's almost an unenviable position of how to let ideas flow and where to draw a line to keep the forum from getting out of control or off focus.

Overall I think the mods do a pretty good job. My skin is a little thicker than some, so if someone comes at me strongly I will respond to what I believe is their issue or concern and not let the stregnth of their reply get to me. Honestly, there are a couple of no nonsense folks here who can be very blunt that I hold in very high regard because of their knowledge or commitment.

As for notifiying mods privately on posts that people find not site appropriate. I would rather see that in sunlight. I have a real pet peeve for tattle tales who do things behind my or your back and then someone gets bushwhacked. Publically state you have an issue, explain the issue and state that you will be adressing it with a mod. Posters will be able to see your concern and evaluate from there. We may see your point and support you or suggest it's best to let it rest. But whisper campaigns, silent agendas or pettiness only hurt a forum.


What if it was anonymous? Personally, I have only been contacted, I believe once or twice. I wouldn't look at it as tattle tales because if someone feels threatened or bullied, they should by all means, contact a mod. No one should be afraid to contact the mods for fear of being a tattle tale.

[huskerjay]

My 2 cents on the matter...

I think we are all adults and should be able to converse back and forth about things without the moderator intervention. I'm with cjohnston on the view that this is "tattling" and we should be able to deal with each other in a civilized manner. Disagreeing or calling someone on something that appears anti-Dave doesn't have to end in name calling and negative reps. Afterall, isn't the point of public messageboards to engage in conversations?

Now if someone really is being bullied or threatened (although I have a hard time imagining how this occurs in cyberspace), then yes, a moderator needs to be alerted. But for the day to day disagreements, let's just keep it civil and agree to disagree. Make your best argument for your case - defend your actions and beliefs, and try to see things from another person's point of view.

My final comment is that some of us (ok, me) have little patience with people who have been on this board for a long time, claim to read and listen to Dave Ramsey, but their behavior never changes. Dave's primary message is that behavior HAS to change. What we've done in the past hasn't worked, so we need to stop doing that behavior. This applies to finances, debt, as well as nutrition and exercise, relationships, etc.

[miranova]

Shark, I respect your opinion, but I don't think that we HAVE tried respectfully disagreeing. At least not often. As soon as someone posts anything controversial, the claws come out and people get personal. It doesn't have to be that way. We could just act like adults.

[Airduck]

I had a suggestion, and flog me if you will, but there has just got to be some middle ground to the major disagreement we've been having on this board.

What if we had a forum for "difficulties with the Dave Ramsey plan", or just one small place where we can discuss our issues with the plan?




Wow. I missed the disagreement and I think that I am OK with that. I don't read all the posts. If the tone seems hostile on the last post in a thread, I don't bother. It is too easy to get caught up in the moment. Typing a hasty response can lead to bad feelings all around.

Now, to share my opinion on a forum for difficulties with the DR plan. I think that we already have that. I understand that each forum is set up to talk about where you are on the plan and to post the difficulties that you are having.

But, tis Roy's site, Roy's decision.

[cjohnston4]

Shark and Momma2Nathan:

Thank you for the feedback.

I may have thicker skin than some. I've seen what I consider strong responses from people I deeply respect. Some may have been directed at me, especially early in my LLNOE membership. I simply can't remember the details. I stepped back and looked at what they were saying instead of how it was said. The ones that immediately come to mind are very valuable contributors. As I believe Gretchen said, when the dialog is through a keyboard, the little nuances that would temper a response if done in person cannot be seen. Frankly, I sometimes am more concerned with some of the "smile in your face folks" than the folks that may reply more strongly than I would have.

I've seen some heat on a couple of exchanges throughout my time here. But never in my estimation has it gotten out of control. I saw a thread yesterday where positions were being defended. I thought both people in the long term handled it pretty well. Maybe they came to different conclusions.

I would rather a person say I disagree or your tone was too harsh and explain why. If the dialog gets out of control , they should tell the person, in open they are going to a moderator to be a third party judge of the issue and why. That would be closer to the Matt 18 example.

I would rather know and face my accuser and understand why I've offended them rather than be dinged out of the blue.

No one comes here to be torn to shreds. Nor should they be. And honestly, I have never seen it. No one comes here to see that car leases are cool either. But I may throw something out as a sounding board item, or to get encouragement not to do something.

As for DR plan deviation, I think that if you culled the posts from all of us we'd all be guilty of some deviation here or there. There are many steps within Dave's steps. For example the time it takes to get through step one and two. Or the amount of time to pay a large ticket item before it is sold. How gazelle one is toward their debt repayment through selling things or second jobs. Even how fast the mortgage should be paid off (Daves' suggestion is 7 years).

I saw someone just the other day rather strongly making a statement for no deviation and plan purity while their signature line showed they weren't following the plan to the letter. We've got to be careful to maintain the spirit of a TMMO, but not be so rigid that we drive people away or exclude them. We would have an awful echo from the empty forum.

[SharkUSMC]

I'm up there with you on the thick skin bruddah!

I guess I just don't want to see Roy pull the plug, I think that's one thing we can all agree on! It's just what's the best way to make that happen is where the debate lies.

Personally, I'm going to just try and be as positive thinking as I can possibly be!

[tkc0380]

why do we have reputations? Is this a major cause of dissention?

[cjohnston4]

I guess I just don't want to see Roy pull the plug, I think that's one thing we can all agree on! It's just what's the best way to make that happen is where the debate lies.

Personally, I'm going to just try and be as positive thinking as I can possibly be!

Amen and totally agree.

[Dorothy]

why do we have reputations? Is this a major cause of dissention?

For some it is. I went for a couple of months without checking mine because I forgot about it. I usually check it once a week or so.

If all the people who don't like the reputation system don't use it and don't look at theirs, then it really doesn't matter.

[Momma2Nathan]

For some it is. I went for a couple of months without checking mine because I forgot about it. I usually check it once a week or so.

If all the people who don't like the reputation system don't use it and don't look at theirs, then it really doesn't matter.

For those that don't like the rep system, it can be disabled in your CP. That way, people can't ding you and your rep doesn't show at all. Actually, now thinking of it, maybe I only have that because I'm a mod. Perhaps that feature could be extended to all members so thatanyone can disable them?